So… you park in a car park where there are no clear signs of how you should pay or how much you should pay, or indeed to whom you should pay it. Then you get a threatening letter some time later charging a fine for “illegal” parking. Then the debt collector’s letters start, then the solicitor’s letters, and ultimately the threatening, intimidating phone calls. I bet the majority of you will just pay up. And I’m not being sexist here, but most of the people who pay up will be female – they’re just so easy for these telephone debt collectors to intimidate. That’s the reason this racket continues to grow into a multi-million pound business.
I had just such a run-in with Meteor Parking at Brighton Station car park. Visit the car park and you’ll see entry and exit barrier machines all wrapped up in plastic with their barriers removed, as if they’re now disused, which in fact they are. You’ll see cameras dotted about. But until recently you wouldn’t have seen clear signage that says whose car park this is, how much it costs and displaying clear terms and conditions, and it’s debateable whether they’re clear even now. Even if you did see such things, merely parking in the car park would not represent a clear breach of contract – because according to the laws of England and Wales you cannot unwittingly enter into any contract, or be tricked into entering into one.
So when you get the “fine”, be very clear in your mind. Though it’s made to look threatening, and as similar as possible to something from the Police or government, that’s just the first part of the process of intimidation. It’s not a fine. A fine can only be levied by an organisation authorised by statute, that is when a law has been passed or a license granted by government to collect such a fine. Meteor Parking is not. Nor are a whole host of other parking companies (Park Direct Ltd, TCP, UK Parking Control, Euro Car Parks etc) which have sprung up over the past 20 years. All they can do is issue you with an invoice, and even then it’s fraudulent if there’s not a clear contract that you’ve entered into with your full knowledge.
So let’s turn to the debt collectors – Roxburghe – well, apart from sending a threatening letter or two, they were pretty ineffectual. The worrying one is “Graham White Solicitors”. Check their records. They have one solicitor listed – one Michael David Sobell, who was admitted as a solicitor in 1962 – see here. But you’ll never hear from him… instead you get letters threatening you, intimidating you, and even adding extra charges from nowhere for “administration” or “costs”. Then you get calls – several per week – what sounds like and is clearly a busy call centre, staffed by rather cocky, pushy chaps claiming to represent Graham White Solicitors who will desperately try to justify their attempts to get you to pay up with a credit card over the phone. These are not solicitors – nor paralegals – nor legal secretaries. These are just call centre debt collectors. They quote laws that don’t exist. They claim powers for authorities who either don’t exist or who have no such powers (like the British Parking Association who, it was claimed, have the power to license or shut down ANY car park in the UK – which they don’t – they’re just a professional association). They say you’ve parked “illegally”, which suggests that you’re in breach of some sort of parking control legislation – but at the most it’s a minor breach of an implicit, assumed contract. They will threaten your credit rating. They will threaten civil litigation, small claims court, county court judgements (CCJs) – anything they can use to worry you into paying. One complete idiot even mentioned getting points on my driving license if I didn’t pay up! Eventually they’ll even start offering you discounts if you pay right now – bit desperate, eh? They really don’t like it when you actually know more than they do – which generally isn’t hard, if you’ve done your research. Several times they’ve lost their temper and put the phone down on me.
Feeling alone? Don’t. Look here… and see that there are lots of people in the same position. Let’s use some logic for a moment – through all this I have been in contact with a whole host of people employed solely to collect money on a rather dodgy principle of law. If this wasn’t a huge money-making enterprise, how on earth could they afford all this? Go-Ahead sold Meteor Parking to Vinci Park Services in September 2010 for a whopping £11M. Then there’s Graham White Solicitors – all those employees, all that effort. And so much desperation in their tactics. So please don’t be intimidated into paying if you don’t think you should.
Oh, and… this is to the Law Society, the Solicitors Regulation Authority and the Legal Ombudsman. If you’re fed up with your noble profession being viewed in a negative light; if you’d like to be seen by the public as an honourable, trustworthy profession… well, you know what to do. Regulate your solicitors. Put your house in order.
Update, February 2012: For more than six months I’ve heard nothing more from Roxburghe or Graham White Solicitors, or indeed Meteor Parking. Today I sent an email to The Law Society, because I know if I was leading a professional body like the Law Society, I’d be pretty damned annoyed about someone taking the good name of the profession in vain like the so-called “Graham White Solicitors”.
Update, October 2012: The law has changed where parking on private land is concerned. There’s a very good summary on The AA’s private parking page.
30th August 2011 at 9:28 am
What an excellent piece of advice. I hope you don’t mind, but I have linked this blog to the above Moneysavingexpert parking forum.
9th September 2011 at 11:21 am
Thanks so much for this. Have received a Graham White letter yesterday and this has put my mind at ease about ignoring the letters.
I hope the phone calls don’t start! I shall simply recite your words from above and then hang up.
5th October 2011 at 7:22 pm
I am in receipt of letter
from graham white Solicitors threatening all sorts of nasties
and costs etc for an alleged parking violation back in
July ticket issued by Parking eye.
So far I have ignored
all correspondence from these people as although I can admit to being
the registered keeper of the vehicle I can categorically state that
i was not driving this vehicle on that day and i am not entirely sure
who was – could’ve been any one of about 6 different people. should
i hold my nerve?
5th October 2011 at 8:08 pm
Well of course I’m not professionally qualified to advise you either way, but just look at it this way… All they have is UK contract law, and if there’s any doubt as to there being a contract between you and their client then perhaps it’s best to leave it to a court to decide. But of course, that’s for you to judge.
15th October 2011 at 7:32 pm
Thank you for this advice. I have been told that mt PCN will be refered to Graham White so it is good to know of this material. Having become aware of the problems faced by many people, I’ve created a petition at change.org to put pressure on companies working with Graham White/Roxburghe debt collectors.
Please sign the petiton at https://www.change.org/petitions/campaign-against-illegal-practices-by-private-car-park-companies-and-debt-collectors and provide details to support the campaign.
Best wishes
Rory Ridley-Duff
5th November 2011 at 8:06 am
I had a run in with all of those mentioned in the article in 2008. My daughter, then a medical student, parked in a car park without any signage beside a Cardiff Hospital. The land was owned by the local NHS trust. I replied to Graham White Solicitors as follows:
“I refer to your letter of 9th inst. I have communicated twice to Roxburghe Debt Collectors on 24th ult and 7th inst. In both letters I requested information as to the alleged parking misdemeanor. I reitterate that as the letter from Roxburghe was the first I heard of this matter- more than five months after the 3rd June, it seems only fair that you should furnish some proof, preferably photographic, of your allegations. If you cannot furnish this proof, please do not continue to harrass me”.
Three years later, I have had no further communication from these solicitors. The biggest joke was that at the time (and still now I believe) parking in hospital car parks was free in Wales. But of course one would not necessarily know that if domiciled in London.
My advice is: stand up to them, ask for proof and threaten harassment if they continue to write unsupported threatening letters. And I’ll sign the petition.
5th November 2011 at 4:29 pm
Sirs,
Thanks for your correspondence above in relation to this. I too have received communication from Roxburghe and now Graham White Solicitors, but never anything from the car park management team.
My story is that I allegedly parked in a car park in a town that I have never visited. The vehicle in question was a hire car, of which I was the only driver.
I wrote back to Roxburghe asking them to provide supportive evidence. None has been forthcoming. A month later I have received the solicitors letter, and also a text message saying that I needed to contact Roxburghe URGENTLY.
Mr Sobell writes, “You have previously been given the opportunity to resolve this PARKING CHARGE NOTICE by way of payment or provision of information and you have chosen to either disregard or ignore it.” So and email reply to Roxburghe, and a reply received from Naser Shah, without significant evidence, constitutes ignorance?
I will write to Mr Sobell – who apparently doesn’t sign his own letters, as it’s a computer printed signature – and ask him to inform his clients that I will await the receipt of the evidence in due time, but considering that neither “Car Park Solutions Ltd” nor “Roxburghe” were able to furnish this within 28 days I will consider the matter closed. Any furhter correspondence in any form without evidence will be considered harassment and/or threatening behaviour, to which I will seek remedy.
I’ll also sign up on the petition.
7th November 2011 at 12:07 am
In reference to S Groves comment on November 5th, I would be interested to see what the outcome is if you do indeed send a letter to Mr Sobell requesting evidence that they can prove who the driver was of the vehicle in question and if unable to furnish this within 28 days you will consider the matter closed. I like the added – Any further correspondence in any form without evidence will be considered harassment and/or threatening behaviour, to which I will seek remedy….
I am also in receipt of a letter serving “notice of intended litigation” and up until this point I have not answered any letters. We shall wait and see…
7th November 2011 at 10:41 am
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE ADVICE, MINES A HOROR STORY regarding the imminent delivery of twins. If anybody would like to know the story please contact me via my e mail.
7th November 2011 at 10:57 am
or comment on this page and i will contact you
regards
Andrew Vaughan
20th November 2011 at 6:34 pm
@ D Foster
I didn’t reply to Mr Sobell in the end, but 1 week later a received an email with photos of a car. It wasn’t the car I was in possession of at the time. See my reply to Roxburghe below. To date I have yet to receive an apology, or confirmation that the matter is now closed. Hopefully they’ll take me to court.
From: xxxxxxx
To: xxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:47:57 +0000
Subject: Photographic Evidence Re: PCN
Good afternoon,
Please find attached photographic evidence in regards to PCN reference 16xxx (Our Ref: 2xxxxxx4)
I trust this is satisfactory and resolves your query.
Please call 01932 332 048 to arrange payment or to discuss this further.
Please DO NOT reply to this email.
Regards,
————————————————–
Dear Mr xxxxx,
Unfortunately I WILL NOT CALL YOU TO ARRANGE PAYMENT, yet another completely unnecessary and impolite demand for monies from a business who I am beginning to think are completely disreputable. I will however reply to your email via the previously received email address (I’m not quite sure why you choose not to answer your own email address – but that’s not important); as I need to show you the evidence that you, your colleagues at Roxburghe, your solicitor, and more importantly your agents Car Park Solutions have failed to notice, or more importantly failed to identify and act upon.
What makes this more frustrating and believe me, I’m furious that it has got to the stage that Roxburghe have instructed a solictor to chase this alleged debt; is that when eventually the photo has been supplied it is blatantly obvious that this IS NOT THE CAR SUPPLIED TO ME BY ALBANY ASSISTANCE. It might be a different model (possibly a Corsa), the colour looks a little darker perhaps blue, but the real give away the registration number. The car I hired was xx xx VCC. The photo shows a car with the registration xx xx VCO. A small but quite important difference.
Attached for your further due diligence are the documents I have in relation to this matter. You and all associated should be thankful that I had not instructed solicitors to defend my case incurring costs that I would now be seeking remedy for, and that in order to draw a line under this matter I am not going to seek any personal losses. However, also attached is a demand for administration charges I have previously received from Albany Assistance. As you might have worked out by now I haven’t paid them any money either. They were contacted on the same day that I first replied to Roxburghe, and as yet I’ve received no further correspondence from them. They are also copied in on this email, as they may wish to pursue their losses directly from Roxburghe, as this is in effect your error, and not mine. For clarity I re-confirm I have never been to Sutton-In-Ashfield.
Mr xxxxx, all of this time, and unnecessary stress, could have been avoided from day one if Roxburghe had done approriate due diligence on the claim when initially lodged by Car Park Solutions Ltd.
Please reply to me with:
a/. A full apology
b/. Confirmation that this is now a closed file
Regards
20th November 2011 at 7:06 pm
I’m as astonished as you are that this could have gone so far, yet unsurprised by the incompetence displayed here. All regulatory parties remain silent on the matter; I can only assume it’s because of the money generated fom the easily bullied.
25th November 2011 at 5:30 pm
I received a letter, which happens to be the second letter notifying me that my fine for parking at Luton airport drop zone was now £120 a few days ago and now today i received the solicitor letter asking for £207.25, with all sort of fees added to it.
I am now very worried and unless someone can tell me any better I will pay as I am too worried this could become even more expensive.
25th November 2011 at 5:44 pm
Guy, as you know I’m not a lawyer and I can’t really advise you; I’m just a chap who sticks up for his rights and refuses to be bullied. But I’ll tell you what I’d do… unless a) there’s a clear point of law cited in the claim, and b) the extra fees could be justified as “reasonable”, and c) I entered into a contract with the parking company knowingly – then I’d tell them to get stuffed. Bullying and pressure is the tactic used to get easy money. But unless there’s something for the court to find in their favour, it won’t go to court. They’ll threaten all sorts… but let’s put aside some of the ones I’ve heard: It can’t damage your credit score. They can’t add points to your driving license. They can’t take your car away and crush it. They can’t seize your property unless a court orders it. Personally I’d love this country to actually produce something again instead of just employing people to extort money out of fellow citizens. But this is the UK in 2011, and it stinks.
27th November 2011 at 11:29 am
Guy, the full details of your case are unclear, but may be you want to review the thread:
https://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=60343&st=100
This appears to be the only case that is going to court in relation to PCE. This isn’t in relation to Roxburghe or Graham White, but it might help you decide whether to challenge the excessive nature of the claims you have received.
Also, what evidence have the agencies provided to support their claim?
3rd December 2011 at 8:43 am
@Guy, Have you reviewed the Pepipoo thread? The fellow went to court. He was required to pay only the losses – £15 (2x £5 parking charges, and 2 x £2.50 DVLA searches), and was charged court costs, of £95. The agency tried to claim legal costs of £5000 which wasn’t awarded. Basically the £95 costs would have been waived if the guy had offered the losses in the first instance. Therefore, the advice might be to offer the losses only at this point. If this isn’t accepted then go to court. Hope this helps.
3rd December 2011 at 3:35 pm
Hi there, I have recieved a letter from ‘Graham white solicitors’ requesting payment for a PCN but no dates times etc on the letter. I have asked for photogrphic evidence of the ‘ticket’ in question – as I am not aware of any ticket and have never recieved a letter from Roxburghe r vinci parking stated on the letter. Also the letter was written on 25/11/11 requesting for repsonse in seven days BUT i had the letter through the post this morning on 3rd December!!!!!
4th December 2011 at 1:44 pm
Hi S Groved
I am sending a letter to them today asking for the proof of the offence.
Even if I did overstay in that instance I cannot understand how this can justify a fine of £122.00 and now more since then I received a letter from a supposed to be solicitor…..all that for a £ 1.00 originally.
But thank you for your help.
I will not judge the bit about the UK in 2011 since I am not from here..but lived here since 1979.
4th December 2011 at 1:45 pm
sorry about the error in your name…….
4th December 2011 at 6:22 pm
@Guy, Sounds like you need to offer them £3.50. See what they say. £1 for the overstay, and £2.50 for their costs in identifying you.
5th December 2011 at 9:49 pm
These companies are not entitled to the money claimed. Their claim is based in contract: they allege that, in parking in the carpark, the driver (and, NB, it is the driver, not the registered keeper, who may not have been driving) has impliedly agreed to comply with the terms set out on their signs. They argue that it is an agreed term of the contract that, if someone parks in contravention of the conditions stated, that driver agrees that they will pay the sum stated, typically £100 or thereabouts. There are significant problems with this argument. Firstly, they have to prove that the driver agreed to enter a contract on those terms. The driver may be deemed to have read and understood the terms, but that is arguable. It depends how prominent the conditions were. A court would need to be persuaded that the conditions were sufficiently prominent to be read and understood by the driver, or that they ought to have been, and in parking the driver agreed to be legally bound by those terms. Even if they get over that hurdle, however, a party is only entitled to recover damages for breach of contract which are equivalent to the loss suffered as a consequence of that breach. What, then, is the value of the loss suffered? It is certainly not £100. That sounds very much like a “penalty”. Penalties are not enforceable in law. You can include a term that includes an estimate of the losses which would be incurred if the contract was breached. The figures demanded plainly bear no relation to any such losses.
They will press very hard for the identity of the driver. The driver is the party to the contract. Without the driver’s details, they will not even get off the ground. I do not believe that they are entitled to be told who the driver was. Various rules of court are typically cited, threatening applications against the registered driver to obtain the name. The basis for such applications seems to me to be extremely feeble and I doubt very much whether any such application would be made. I am also unaware of any claim, which has been defended, which has been successful, although I have not checked out the link above yet. I am currently corresponding with the “litigation department” of one of these companies. It has been going on for months. I am enjoying it, but that’s just me. They are yet to explain to me how (in my case) they can recover anything in relation to parking for longer than 2 hrs in a free car park, or how the sum claimed can be said to be a reasonable estimate of the losses suffered. Nonsense. I do not believe they have any claim.
7th December 2011 at 9:01 pm
On a Sunday in Manchester, driving around following the signs to an official car park where we were happy to pay the rate asked to park as we were in a strange city and only having a lunch with out daughter before heading all the way back to Scotland, the signs led us into a car park where the barrier arm was tied up and had tape over the mchine that was supposed to produce a ‘time card ticket’ or something similar, with a notice saying “out of Order”. It looked as though the car park had been ‘officially’ abandoned for some time. It was a Sunday morning there was only a few cars parked and, perhaps because of all the autumn leaves in addition to the the tape, the place did indeed look abandoned. There were four of us in the car all competing to pay the cost of the parking, not one of us ‘clocked’ the signs, which we learned from subsequent correspondence, were ‘supposed’ to be ‘clearly displayed’ informing us of the conditions and ‘agreement’ by which we accepted parking our car there. We learned some time later when a very ‘Official’ form with photographs of our car entering and leaving the car park arrived in the post saying that (having stayed slightly over two hours) we were being charged £30 or £60 parking fee if we did not pay with a few days. Well he have now arrived at £177 (Talk about ‘double you money’) and a whole series of increasingly threatening letters from “Parking Eye”, Roxburgh Dept Collectors, to this Michael Sobel of Graham White Silicitors.
I am a old age pensioner and Yes! I feel very bulled, intiminated and threatened and the charges and add ons are excessive and I outwith by budget. As they had failed to make clear that there was a parking fee, and what it was, and had they requested this in there correspondence what that was we would have been hapy to pay including a reasonable admin charge. It was their fault that a customer willing to pay did not find a convenient method to so do.
26th December 2011 at 1:07 pm
@ Fergus
Firstly I am not a solicitor, only another victim of the incompetences of these parking charge companies. My views are my own and may not be legally correct, they are only what I have developed in the last 4 months from reading various threads about the ways PCNs are followed up.
Fergus this is a concern for you I know, but there is a case that has recently been taken to court by Parking Eye as described above. Parking Eye won the case but only their parking losses. Do you know what the fee for the car-park was? If it was free for 2 hours, as appears from your text, and the car park was not full, then you can, and should, argue that they have suffered no loss. Stand your ground, correspond with them in writing only, and make a genuine offer to settle (with no money needed). If there was a charge for the first 2 hours then offer this in full and final settlement. They are not allowed to apply a penalty, only to recover losses. If they incur additional costs during this process then that is their own fault. The only additional cost you need to offer is the fee for the DVLA search, my understanding is this is only £2.50. Let them take you to court. By going to court they are obliged to present evidence that you contravened the parking area notices; remeber you are innocent until proved guilty. I would expect that they would have to provide images of the notices in the correct area, and clearly visible to customers, and evidence that the payment machines were working, or that there was an alternative method for collection. If they weren’t then you should not be at fault. May be ask them to provide accounts for the day in question. How much revenue did they receive from vehicles parked in the car park on the day in question, that was collected on that day, and how much are they seeking in penalties?
As a pensioner if you can’t afford the penalty, then even if found at fault by a court what “fine” will the court apply to you? Probably nothing, and if you offer to settle now then costs may be waived too. Please look at the thread I’ve detailed above. The whole case is very interesting.
10th January 2012 at 10:50 am
I also have a story related to current dealings with Graham White Solicitors and parking at the Leicester Royal Infirmary last year.
10th January 2012 at 11:02 am
Followed from above post:
The story in a nutshell is:
Was collecting new born baby daughter from hospital
Parked in 30 min area in front of maternity ward
Just about to leave when baby was taken very ill and rushed to the special care baby unit in an incubator, oxygen, drip, antibiotics etc… all very stressful and frightening
Daughter stayed in hospital for another week in special baby care unit fighting an infection
Returned to vehicle slightly late for obvious reasons(approx 30 mins late)
£80 parking charge notice issued by CMS – ignored
A while laterfirst payment demand frm CMS arrived – ignored
A few months later another demand from CMS now for £130 – ignored
A few months later – letter from Graham White entitled “Notice of intended litigation” adding costs of £207 to the already £130
Threats to start county court proceedings
Letter threatens “seriously effect you getting credit for 6 years”…”baliff to attend your address and remove goods
“pay now” …blah blah blah
I had read lots of comments/blogs and info on the web and 99% said “DONT PAY” , dont respond, dont reply, call or acknowledge anything from them…… was this the right thing to do?
I would really appreciate some comments from your readers on what i should now do. They have a pic of me parked in the bay, but parking in the bay isnt a problem its the overstay they are trying to fine me for.
All comments greatfully recieved.
Thanks
17th January 2012 at 5:07 pm
I decided to do some digging on these so called solicitors and I am glad I did, they do not exist!! They ceased trading in November 2005, roxbourgh debt collectors are using the solicitors name as a front to extract money from unwiting drivers who pay up to keep them at bay. i have an email form the solicitors regulation authority confirming this, this means the letters and all the correspondence are in my opinion illegal and cannot be enforced I for one will be making further enquiries with the authority that regulates the company they will have some explaining to do!! Dont pay Graham White Solicitors!
2nd February 2012 at 10:54 pm
Unfortunately the authorities seem to do nothing about this. Perhaps Trading Standards can help.
18th January 2012 at 10:15 pm
I just cross checked the letters I have been sent by Roxburghe and Graham White Solicitors – Like Barry has mentioned its a front as the phone numbers are similar – Roxburghes tel is 01932 332048, the phone number on the Graham White Solicitors letter head is 01932 332020 and the telephone number on the same letter is 01932 332049 and its not even proper letter headed paper!
I received a letter initially from roxburghe telling me of a car parking fine in a place that i had not even been to, i called them and they said they will send me photographic evidence (which i am still waiting for!), and today i get a letter from Graham Whiteside solicitors telling me that its my final warning, and that i should respond within 14 days, and i receive the letter 7 days after the dated letter!
19th January 2012 at 12:37 am
By the way PCC’s cannot enforce parking fines only councils and offical bodies can. Un less they actually send you a bona fide court paper(I would check with the court it is genuine first) then ignore all correspondance from any private car company they use the threat of action etc etc to bully you into paying up as they do not want to take anybody to court due to costs and the fact they would loose the case as private car parking fines are unenforceable so do not pay ever pay up.
20th January 2012 at 5:48 pm
Do you guys have an email address for both Roxburghe and Graham White please?
Thanks.
21st January 2012 at 7:21 am
Funnily enough as Graham White are or have ceased trading they do not have an email address neither do Roxburghe I was told by the SRA that they never have had one either. I suspect Roxburghe who are one in the same company want you to use their own expensive number so they can make some money out of you while they hold you on the line. I suggest you write to the Solicitors Registration Authority via email and they will be able to deal with yoiur request.
2nd February 2012 at 9:48 pm
I am so relieved to read this. I have been appealing against my dads parking ticket since November, for totally just reasons, only for him now, at 72, to be getting both letters from Roxburge and Graham White, which has been quite distressing for him. Thankfully on a quick google of the solicitors to try to call them, I came across this first. Disgusting and just shouldn’t be allowed to happen. Thanks again….I’m relieved to put his mind at rest.
2nd February 2012 at 10:52 pm
I’m very glad this has helped, Wendy. I hope it all goes away and that your dad can relax and just forget the whole thing, free of bullies.
2nd February 2012 at 11:06 pm
@ David Not at all, thank you very much for the link.
1st March 2012 at 7:49 pm
Hi, I am relieved to read the above. I have just received the letter from Roxburghe Debt Collectors. My only concern is my wife is 8 months pregant and might have to deal with aggressive phone calls from the above and Graham White. Any advice as how to deal with them when they call? Is it best just to hang up? Thanks
2nd March 2012 at 6:51 pm
We received our Parking Charge Notice in December 2011 from PCN (NW) LTD.
Our first letter after that was from Roxburghe on 17th Jan.
We wrote back refuting the allegation and requested that they refer the matter back to the principle eg PCN (NW) LTD.
Second letter from Roxburghe 2nd Feb. more demands now for £195. We wrote back pointing out we refuted the allegation please refer back to the principle.
Third letter arrived following day 3rd Feb. This letter interestingly enough quotes the principle agency relationship that a registered keeper is responsible for a drivers actions.
This I beleive applies to companies and drivers acting on their business. Otherwise if someone stole your car and went through a red light you would be responsible for thier fine!
Fourth letter 9th february from Michael Sobell of Graham Whites – more threats etc.
We replied to him to please commence court proceedings and we would defend the actuion in court.
Fifth letter from Roxburghe again 20th february, this time they have offered us 14days to stump up or full details of would you believe it ‘our dispute’. before we could reply to this
Sixth letter from Michael Sobell again 29th Feb – Final Warning – at last. We are now ignoring these letters but I will now make written complaints to OFT re the huge amounts being demanded. The solicitors regulation authority our local MP and upon receipt of further harrasing letters we will complain to the police under the Protection from Harrasment Act 1997.
I am writing this to show support to everyone else who has recieved one of these Parking charge notices (or invoice) and then suffered these annoying demands. The more that people stand up to them the less profit they make. Do not post any personal details or identyfying information as the people behind this scam also read through these forums.
3rd March 2012 at 4:13 pm
I am glad you said they read this forum as since I posted what I know about them i have not received anymore letters strange that?
8th March 2012 at 3:25 pm
My daughter received a “Graham White” letter demanding payment of parking fine, with additional costs even though she had already settled the original fine (Genuine) we have a letter from the car park company confirming payment and yet they still pursue her for payment. Where can i go to stop this happening? is there a governing body??
16th March 2012 at 11:40 am
I received a parking fine from CMS last year in July while moving my girlfriend into her new apartment. I later left to find a warden printing out a “Fine” which he said I had to pay. He then took a picture of the car and left.
This happened a second time, but this time round i DID have a permit, yet because it was sitting just slightly under the window, and it was misty – the warden decided to issue ANOTHER “FINE”….
now i’ve received letters from Roxburghe as well (yet to receive the solicitor stuff) I got a call from them and they said I needed to pay the £188 … the call has been recorded and it can be taken to a small claims court. I actually explained the instances mentioned above…
I was told they need to prove the driver was me etc – because i mentioned the above – does this change anything? – meaning – do I need to pay?
28th March 2012 at 6:27 pm
The Solicitors Registration Authority is your first port of call then keep all the correspondance for the legal ombudsman their email is here [email protected] the email for the SRA is [email protected]
The SRA have told me Graham White Solicitors do not exist and ceased trading in 1995 do not pay a penny so Roxburghe are acting illegally but the SRA need the evidence to prove it and your correspondance will do that so keep all of it and make sure you copy it and send it to the SRA and Legal Ombudsman.
My case is 382-163 also you might want to report them to the fraud section of the SRA at [email protected].
Sarah Hodgkins fraud intelligence officer is dealing with all complaints about Roxburghe and Graham White Solicitors she does not seem to believe what i am telling her is true so the more you can send her the better!
29th March 2012 at 8:10 pm
In reply to Barry Faust,
I also have had threatening letters from Roxburghe with regards to a parking enforcement notice issued by APCOA. Just this morning, a letter arrives from “Graham White Solicitors” Michael Sobell stating that I need to pay £128 for the notice issued. The “solicitors” are also stating that I will soon be liable for extra costs totalling £207.25, the same as many others I have read about.
Would you recommend that I also contact the SRA with the papers I have had sent to me? I do not intend to pay anything after reading what I have today online.
30th March 2012 at 4:06 am
Neil I personally would not pay but I cannot advise you do not! I would say contact the SRA ask them about the solicitors and be specific regarding the name also ask to be put in contact with the lady I mentioned in the fraud section or you can email the fraud section yourself, keep all correspondance and make sure the SRA see it either copies or orginals if they want originals make sure you copy the letters first.
20th April 2012 at 2:26 am
20th April 2012
Also in reply to Barry Faust,
Well Barry it would appear that regarding the above mentioned battle it still continues. I am in receipt of a letter dated 13/04/12 from G White Solicitors.
I act on behalf of my 85 year old disabled father who is extremely distressed, as a current victim of this fraudulent company receiving threatening letters and so forth from messrs Roxburghe/Graham White Solicitors.
I too will continue to ignore their cheap photocopied correspondence and will be forwarding all copies to the fraud department of the SRA and the legal ombudsman for their comments on the matter. These people need to be dealt with once and for all.
22nd April 2012 at 10:22 am
Hi Jon, thank you for the information about the aforementioned parasites and their theiving procedure of duping honest hard working citizens of this country. I also received a Civil Parking Notice fine for £40.00from Vinci Parking in Cardiff in January2012. Knowing I was in Swansea with my car for the whole of the day in question I contacted Vinci by telephone to inform them I had proof that my car and I were not in the place they stated. I requested their proof in the way of photographic evidence to support their claim
I received a call the following day from an emplyee of Vinci confirming their parking warden had input the wrong registration into their system. I asked the person to confirm this retraction in written form to which they duly did within a few days.
All said and done, I thought that would be the end of the matter until the end of March 2012 when I received a Letter from Roxburge debt collectors informing me that the ‘fine’ has now become £94.00 together with all the threatening ‘further costs and legal action from you know who -Graham White Solicitors- This letter whuich was signed by a ‘Steve Dargonne’ (not personally but a photocopy inprint) ie mass produced electronically,
I duly ignored this letter due to the information already received, I received today the next action of this well oiled machine in the form of Graham White Solicitors aka Micheal Sobel Solicitor who again not signed personally but as before a photocopy signature.
This Letter has the hallmarks of a legal document with large bold letters FINAL WARNING at the top folloed by references toward legal statements which are of course the vehicle delivering the intimidation. Before I write to this parasite I googled him to find your blog which delivers good advice on how to deal with such slimeballs. I will be sending my response to this letter shortly but I expect it to take at least 3 to 4 drafts as I find myself typing expletives that I would not normally use in correspondance
22nd April 2012 at 11:00 am
Please makle sure both the SRA and Ombudsman are informed and that they are told there are others many others in the same position. One thing they wont tell you. If they cant prove you received the letters they cant prove you received the notice no reply means nothing has been served. If it went to court they would have to prove you received all the notifications without a reply from you they cant.
26th April 2012 at 9:16 am
Hi there
I was Googling Graham White and came upon this article! Luckily I am not a person who has been intimidated by these idiots – Roxburghe. I am just sending about my fourth email appealing the parking notice I received, which I received because Ibis Hotels cocked up and did not issue me with a parking ticket so I could park for free! (So I’m going to complain again to them too.)
In any event, I’m glad I found this article so that I have confirmation that these “solicitors” are in fact just some more morons. I will be mentioning in my email to Roxburghe the fact that they have not responded to any of my appeals and that all of my emails will be put before the court when court proceedings commence, which of course they won’t.
I just ignore the phone…
For every letter I receive from them, I email the scanned copies I have the documentation proving that I had booked a parking space. If anything ever did go to court, I can therefore prove that I was appealing the tickets.
At least I know I’m not alone!!
26th April 2012 at 9:18 am
Oh, and in my last email to them I told them I have no intention of paying the fine anyway. LOL
26th April 2012 at 9:21 am
I have received a letter from Graham White Solicitors threatening court proceedings of £207.25 and that judgement orders wil be made against me for six years. I rang to admit i was parked in Asda just over two hours because of the Christmas rush in December and going to Asda to do my shopping. I received nothing at all until the 17th April, when it was alleged I had received two further letters from them 23rd March and 2nd April. I requested further copies, as I work for a firm of Solicitors, only to be told they did not have them. I asked why, they could not tell me. I spoke to another guy, presumably a manager and asked to speak to the solicitor concerned. I was told he did not speak to anyone. I asked him for copies of the letters and he wanted to know why – as explained I required these copies before I paid anything and I needed to speak to my colleague at my office, he asked why I wanted to do this. I asked him if he would pay something that he did not have letters for and he asked what the gain to me was of having sight of these letters. As he therefore declined in giving me the copy letters or telling me the address for Excel Parking Services, or to speak to the solicitor concerned, I asked for the address to write to, to make a complaint. This address was nothing like the address from “Graham White” and was Roxborough under a Po Box address “PO Box 342 West Byfleet Surrey KT14 6YX. As I explained to him when I send letters to clients I keep copies and these are available, he said they were computer generated ! which computers do they use “A CALL CENTRE” obviously.
26th April 2012 at 9:34 am
This is the email I have sent today, to their account holders email address, their client services email address, their sales email address, and their it support email address…
“Further to the letter received today from Michael Sobell at Graham White Solicitors, a law company which appears not to exist, please find attached yet again my documentation.
As no-one has had the decency to reply to my previous appeals, I do find it hilarious that you are trying to scare me into paying by sending fraudulent solicitors’ letters.
I shall of course refer that matter to Sarah Hodgkins, Fraud Intelligence Officer at the SRA.
All of my previous correspondence will be used in court when you issue legal proceedings.
In the meantime, should you send any further threatening letters, please be advised that they will be filed in my recycling bin.
Kind regards”
We’ll see what happens next! Morons…
30th April 2012 at 8:03 pm
Thank you so much for posting this info. I was given a CPN which has someone elses registration number on it and both Roxbourge and Sobell are harassing me for the money despite me repeatedly explaining I will not be held responsible for someone else’s fine!! It’s ridiculous – they really try and scare money out of you!
22nd May 2012 at 7:17 pm
I searched the Find a Solicitor website and Graham White does exist as a firm, supervised by the ‘very experienced’ Michael Sobell. Whatever else may be going on, they do exist according to the Law Society! The Law Society used to grant practising solicitors their certificates, until that role was taken over by the SRA. If the Law Society has this wrong, then the SRA should tell them, otherwise the firm does exist I’m afraid.
https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor/view=lawfirmdetails.law?orgid=272121&searchType=L
24th May 2012 at 1:33 pm
This might be the case according to the law society but as you point out the SRA are now the body issuing solicitors their certificates and according to them this firm ceased trading as a solicitors in November 2005 and as such are NOT a legal entity. The website asks you to confirms this firms status by checking its status with the SRA something I did and they told me they no longer exist. To put up a statement saying they do exist according to the law society is just smoke and mirrors the fact is this company does not and is not practicing as a solicitors and has not been doing so since 2005!!
29th May 2012 at 8:02 am
I have read all this with interest. I am a retired Police Officer and crime trainer and have done some research which you may find useful. First of all, in order to prevent repetition these letters (for that is all they are) are not fines and not legally enforcable but I feel that has been fully explained by now. What concerns me about these letters from ‘Graham White’ is that they are quoting The Civil Procedure Regulations and suggesting that they can apply these orders to take you before a Court and that the Court will then order you to state who the driver of the car was at the time the ‘Infringement’ took place. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. In law you have no obligation WHATSOEVER to reveal to a private company or individual any information whatsoever, who was using your car at any particular time is none of their business. Nor are you in anyway obliged to conduct any form of enquiry on behalf of this company. If you read the Civil Proceedure Regulations in detail and not just the small section they send you, you will see that before any Court action can be taken it MUST be supported by evidence, given that, if they have any claim it is against the driver and not the registered owner. If they cannot offer clear evidence to a Court as to who the driver was they are stuck. To apply the rules as they suggest is exactly like ordering a witness to appear before a court to say who the offender of a crime was, when the offender at that point is unknown, it is complete nonsense.There is also a section in these regulations which re-iterate your legal right to silence, that is to say you cannot at any point be forced to give any information which may incrimnate you. The Parking Companies have argued that by refusing to give information as to the driver the Court will make an assumption that it was you. The Court cannot do this. Please be clear about this. If, on the very rare instance these companies take you to Court the onus is on them and them alone to satisfy the court on all points. Two grainy photos of a car, with no reference points and no clear evidence of who parked it there are well below anything which a court of law would accept.
2nd June 2012 at 9:23 am
As an addition to the above there have just been two Court cases which have gone against a private parking company Vehicle Control Services. Both failed for the same reason. Case no 1 (VCS v Ibbotson) was a straight forward parking case and case 2(Inland Revenue v VCS)was a tax issue. In both cases the Court decided that the Parking Company cannot lawfully demand ‘Penalty payments’ from motorists as the contractual agreement with the actual landowner does not give them ‘Lawful possession’ of the land. The Parking company argued that there was a contract between themselves and the motorist, however this was dismissed by the Court. The Court stated that for a contract to be complete there has to be an ‘OFFER’ and an ‘AGREEMENT’. The parking company cannot make the offer of parking as their contract with the landowner does not give them ‘lawful possession’. The real downer for VCS is that the Court stated that any payments that were received were not ‘penalties’ but merely payments and are therefore subject to VAT. As they are a National company this will be many thousands of pounds.
2nd June 2012 at 9:38 am
Oh dear a double whammy!!
2nd June 2012 at 9:41 am
I wonder if acting on behalf of the council that will still stand then? I have been told council tickets are enforceable but the private companies are not. So if a private company is enforcing parking on behalf of the council is it therefore still enforceable?
6th June 2012 at 11:25 am
@ barry faust
Whatever the situation is regarding previous dealings with the SRA and Graham White, I have checked myself with the SRA today and they have confirmed that Graham White Solicitors (registered no. 272121 of West Byfleet, Surrey) are indeed still regulated by the SRA. It is a sole practitioner firm run by Michael Sobell, and as far as they are concerned the firm is still operating.
I am by no means an apologist for Graham White Solicitors (I am currently ignoring my own set of letters from them and Roxburghe). I am merely trying to correct the misapprehension that some people might get from reading this forum that this is a bogus set of solicitors. Whatever their arrangement with Roxburghe and whatever you think of the way they do business (i.e. praying on the easily scared) it is a genuine firm of solicitors.
If you get a letter from Graham White (registered no. 272121) it is a genuine solicitor’s letter, but given the circumstances in which you will be receiving it you will perhaps view it in a different light, and based on the other sage advice on this thread you might treat it differently from a solicitor’s letter received in another context. Should you receive a letter from another firm of solicitors you should follow the SRA’s link to the Law Society’s finding a solicitor website https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/using-solicitor/find-solicitor.page#finding. If a firm or solicitor is listed, they are regulated by the SRA. If you require further confirmation of the firm’s status, call the SRA on 08706062555 (option 5).
If you get a letter from someone purporting to be a solicitor who is not in fact a solicitor you should refer the matter to the SRA as it is a criminal offence and they have the power to prosecute it. https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems/fraud-dishonesty/bogus-fake-solicitors.page.
I hope that has clarified the situation. I have gone into detail as Barry may have recieved a letter from a different Graham White Solicitors.
6th June 2012 at 3:41 pm
Really Sam so what is this then…
Dear Mr Faust
Thank you for your email of 4 January 2012.
Mr Graham Brian Newton White is no longerpractising. We do have a private contact address for Mr Graham Brian NewtonWhite (formerly of Graham White & Co, Lavender Park Road, West Byfleet, Surrey),however the Data Protection Act prevents us from disclosing it. Graham White& Co ceased practising on 1 November 2005. We do not have an email addressfor him. I will be happy to forward on a letter, requesting a specific documentor file only, on your behalf using the following procedure:
1. Write a letter explaining thatyou wish to retrieve specific files or documents from the solicitor, pleasesend this to us in an unsealed envelope. Please ensure that you include yourname and contact details on this letter.
2. Send this with a covering letterto us requesting that we forward on your letter to the private address held onour records. Please write the solicitor’s name and SolicitorsRegulation Authority (SRA) ID number 94027 on the letter.
3. Your correspondence should besent to:
ContactCentre
SolicitorsRegulation Authority (SRA)
Ipsley Court
BerringtonClose
Redditch
Worcestershire
B98 0TD
Please note that we cannot guarantee that the recipient will contact you andunder no circumstances will we forward on anything other than a simple requestfor specific files or documents.
I hope that this information is helpful. If you have any further queries thatyou would like to discuss, please contact us by telephone on 0870 606 2555. Ourlines are open 09.00 to 17.00 Monday to Friday. If you are calling fromoverseas please use +44 (0) 1527 504450. Please note calls may bemonitored/recorded for training purposes. Alternatively you can e-mail us on [email protected]
Thank you for contacting the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA).
Yourssincerely
Ann Berry
Administrator
ContactCentre
Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA)
Phone : 0870 606 2555
Fax : 0207 320 5964
Extension :
Email : [email protected]
Website : http://www.sra.org.uk
26th June 2012 at 12:10 pm
@ barry faust
Dear Barry
Thank you for posting the full letter as it has clarified the issue nicely. As I said, you might have received a letter from a different Graham White Solicitors. This is confirmed by the SRA letter which refers to Graham White & Co, who ceased trading in 2005. Whatever the similarities in address, the firm I received a letter from is Graham White Solicitors, a sole practitioner firm run by Michael Sobell (reg’d number 272121). This firm is regulated by the SRA and is a legitimate firm (issues over their clients and area of practice are not for me to comment on here).
People should not ignore a letter from Graham While Solicitors (reg’d number 272121) because they think they are ‘fake’ solicitors (though you might wish to ignore it for other reasons). A letter from Graham White & Co in Bushey, Herts (reg’d number 272120) is fine as this is also a legitimate firm. A letter purporting to come from Graham White & Co of Lavender Park Road, West Byfleet is something that deserves to be reported to the SRA.
I hope that clarifies my point.
28th June 2012 at 2:59 pm
I have a PCN and a letter from Roxburghe Debt Collectors stating that I now owe £102. I am refusing to pay this fine as all they state on the letter is the date, car reg and Asda Coventry. As there are 3 Asda’s in Coventry how do I stand on this. Thank you
28th June 2012 at 4:06 pm
Ly
@Lynn Matthews
Lynn ignore it like I said if they cant prove you have received the letter, who the diriver is etc they cant prove they sent anything to anyone or to the correct driver/pwner. Keep all correspondance and send it to the above mentioned addresses i have mentioned in my correspondance. Listen to what the SRA say and any other offical body on this before you do anything, read all above and then decided what you want to do.
28th June 2012 at 4:20 pm
Thank you Barry for your advise surely they haven’t a case anyway as all they have said is Asda Coventry and not which one.
28th June 2012 at 5:06 pm
@Lynn Matthews
No problem at all , NO they havant just ignore it is my advice and if you are worried call the SRA etc.
28th June 2012 at 5:39 pm
Thank you very much will stop worrying now .
9th July 2012 at 2:08 pm
Does anyone know how to find out the result of a case being heard on june 26th 2012 re Park Direct Ltd and their alleged improper signage, procedures and business practice? I read about it last month but can’t find the notes I made at the time! Don’t have any more details than as stated here, sorry!
11th July 2012 at 1:59 pm
Hi Barry have just received a letter from Graham White Solicitors from Lavender Park, West Byfleet, Surrey stating that I owe £102.00 but they are going to take legal action in the county court and this will include £30 Claim issue fee, Solicitors costs for issuing claim £50, Judgment costs £25, Warrant issue fee £100, Solicitors costs for issuing warrant £2.25 a grand total of £207.25 please help do i ignore this or what some advise would be appreciated. Thank you.
11th July 2012 at 2:54 pm
My advice would be to ignore it however as stated above keep the correspondance and contact the SRA as a matter of urgency as this company is the one I have had dealings with and it does not exist they will send you several letters to ramp up the pressure. All the details for who to contact and web addresses are on this blog. Read what we have all written and then take the action you wish.
11th July 2012 at 6:13 pm
Thank you very much Barry
11th July 2012 at 6:20 pm
My pleasure I hope you feel relived now, let us all know what the SRA say. There is a point of contact forgot her name but she is mentioned on here!
11th July 2012 at 6:49 pm
@ali
You need to know in which town/city it is being heard then go from their typ e i tin and do a search you find it!
11th July 2012 at 9:41 pm
hi all
i have a invoice from roxburghe for £200.00
my car was loading and unloading on private land{car\park} no marked bays
pick up heavy tyres from the garage with the permission of the tenant,parked the car to get the keys from the flat around the corner all within 3minutes a firm sprung out unseen by me called BGS SERVICES LTD put a notice on my car to demand £70.00 if paid within 14 days.ignored it.then a invoice from roxburghe for £200.00 pay within 10 days or we pass it on to graham white solicitors.my point is this not a parking ticket it is an invoice pay x amount because you have broken a contract on private land they all have po box address and £1.00 + a minute to ring them to sort out a problem.all they have is a photo of my car with my reg that is it they don’t have a person to the car on the said date.also the crime does not fit the punishment{what loss is there}
any advise would be good
how do you stop these crooks?
12th July 2012 at 1:11 am
I would read this blog from top to bottom and then make up your own mind. I myself would not pay it, these people know YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY. They also know if they invent a fictious solicitors and collections company to boot that most people will pay thats how they get around the law. I would contact the SRA regarding this comapny and its use of the collections/graham white solicitors and I would also contact the SIA regarding BGS and forward any replies gained from each regulator onto the other and see how that works. Dont call, dont reply, keep all correspondance and makes sure the SRAand SIA receive copies.
18th July 2012 at 11:27 pm
ok barry many thanks
to demand £200.00 when there is no loss is a con the car park was free
26th July 2012 at 8:16 am
I too have a drawer full of letters from Graham White Solicitors. I have not paid any fine and do not intend too. I parked and paid for a ticket in Chorlton Manchester [ which I have] But overstayed my time, not seeing any sign that said you had to pay if you stayed after 6pm Saturday. Then I received the first letter. I went online to pay them, but when you get to the web page that lets you pay it’s not available. I took a screen shot of this page, { i tried five times over the week. It never worked.
Then I phoned them and tried to pay over the phone, you get the usual press number 1 etc, 2 etc. 3 etc then it tells you to input your reference. guess what it will not take all the numbers. I keep the number on my mobile as proof I tried. That was that I started looking on the internet and found this site. seems to me it’s all a con to extract money from people by fear and force. My husband is an ex bailiff manager for a County Court. He says let him take us to court. We are in our late seventies and even if he won which he doubts, we would pay him peanuts a week. I am not lo0sing any sleep over Graham White Solicitors. Oh! Yes, and if any one phones up act daft, and don’t give any information about yourself or your financial position.
27th July 2012 at 8:11 pm
Hi, we have also been recieving letters for being 21 mins over in a car park. It started with Eurocar parks then Roxburghe and now Graham White. My husband recieved a call from roxburghe today but hung up on them. We have been ignoring the letters after seeing most of the comments on the web. The call today made me panic as I would normally have just paid it. Is ignoring it still the right thing to do?
Thanks
30th July 2012 at 6:44 pm
just had a call about a bill that needed paying from ‘Graham White Solicitors’ apparently a talk talk bill, called talk talk and the bill was made in error by their systems. The Solicitors/Roxburgh failed to give me their registered company number on 3 occasions (and its not shown on their website which is illegal)
these people need to be stopped
1st August 2012 at 1:09 pm
May I ask for advice – I paid the correct amount in a private pay and display car park, returned within the allotted time as paid to find a ticket on my windscreen for failing to display my ticket correctly – I understand that they have photographic evidence which I have asked to see, however getting threatening letters from Roxburghe and threats of leag action from Graham White Solicitors!
Any advice please?
1st August 2012 at 2:36 pm
Read the whole of this forum it will tell you not to pay and I have done the same. Keep all correspondence and ignore them do not contact them just send it all onto the SRA!
1st August 2012 at 2:37 pm
@HOWIE
@shane freemantle
please make sure you inform trading standards as well the more letters they get the more they will act!!
1st August 2012 at 2:38 pm
@NIcola Kirk Nicola do as we all have and collect all correspondence do not reply. Inform the SRA and trading standards.
6th August 2012 at 10:14 am
Have you heard anymore since this? @ Craigb
13th August 2012 at 7:48 pm
Has anyone got the email address for Graham White Solicitors as they do not include it on their letters – i have an email response typed which includes previous emails i have sent to the parking company but cannot send it at the moment! Thanks!!
17th September 2012 at 12:09 pm
Thank you so much for all the comments and information. I am in receipt of letters from Roxborough and Graham White Solictors asking for £207.25 costs about a parking ticket I bought in Redruf Cornwall. I bought the ticket but do not have possession anymore but I am ignoring all correspondence as suggested. They do not bully me. Thank you for your advice
26th September 2012 at 12:48 pm
Also had the letters from Parking Eye, Roxburghe, and now Graham White, 1 phone call message which could hardly be understood, feel very threatened but I am continuing to ignore. I don’t believe they are entitled to £207.25 the latest amount quoted for waiting for 11 minutes to collect someone from outside where they work.
27th September 2012 at 7:25 pm
Is it worth complaining to the OFT as they’ve a lianced by this body.
8th October 2012 at 6:48 pm
hi they are all crooks roxburghe,graham white and BGS SERVICES LTD
DON’T PAY THEM A PENNY DO AS THEY SAY ON HERE REPORT THEM TO THE OFT,TRADING STANDARDS AND VERY IMPORTANT THE SRA.I HAVE HAD DEALINGS WITH ALL THE ABOVE CROOKS.GOOD LUCK
6th November 2012 at 11:46 am
“under UK law you cannot unwittingly enter into any contract, or be tricked into entering into one.” What is UK law Jon? There is no such thing as ‘UK law’. And actually yes, anyone in England, NI, Scotland or Wales can enter into a contract without realising they are doing so! People do this dozens of times each day without even realising it. It does not mean that a vaild contract has not been formed because one or even both parties did not have the knowledge to realise in law what they are doing.
Jon – your ‘advice’ is shockingly bad and very misleading. You have no idea what you are talking about and stand to potentially get a lot of people who are already in a little bit of bother, into a lot of trouble! Why not leave it to the professionals? Concentrate on whatever it is you are good at in life.
Regards,
Adam
6th November 2012 at 3:42 pm
Adam: a contract, under English contract law, is a voluntary obligation between two parties. Mutual agreement and bilateral assent is necessary. Arguably English law is clearer on this than any other body of law in any other country. Consent is of paramount importance. Establishing consent is central to any court action involving a contractual dispute. The judiciary has established legal precedent in pretty much every kind of scenario where someone has sought to pull the wool over someone else’s eyes and enforce it with a contract. There is a huge difference between the implicit assent to a contract when, for example, you purchase a bus ticket, and the imposition of a contract upon an unwitting motorist by a company that didn’t bother to put nice clear signs up to warn people they’re entering into a contract on a piece of land used as a private car park. And when a signature has been forged on a contract, it doesn’t mean that the person whose signature has been forged is now contractually obliged.
I’m not advising anyone, Adam, I’m trying to make people think twice, to find out what their rights are in situations where they’re being intimidated by companies dressing one thing up as another. But I’ll tell you what… if you think you can help make things here clearer and more factual, I’d be pleased to hear from you – especially with your law education. It’s always good to help out in a positive way when you feel things can be improved, and I’m sure we all want the same thing at the end of the day.
It’s been left to “the professionals” for far too long. That’s why we live in a society where so many people get ripped off every single day and either don’t even realise or feel they’re powerless. The legal profession is only interested in clearing things up where there’s money to be made through individual or class actions. If the poor downtrodden common man can’t or won’t take it to court, the lawyers won’t help. Some lawyers even mislead and feed off these people! By drawing public attention to scenarios in which people might become the unwitting victims of corporate dishonesty, we might actually change things for the better. So… which side are you on?
6th November 2012 at 3:25 pm
Adam,
have you dealt with the company on here if not it is you who do not know what you are talking about and by the way which John are you talking about cant see any of them mention UK law?
Do you work for the above mentioned companies?
Cant see whats wrong with reporting any company if you think they are breaking the law or they are not what they say they are, so if this company or companies are all lefit then reporting them wont matter a jot will it?
9th November 2012 at 4:04 pm
Hi Jon,
I’ve no doubt whatsoever that you are doing everything with the best intentions in the world, and in addition the parties referenced above are of seriously questionable morals and integrity and people like this make me personally furious. However, SOME of the claims you make are gross over-simplifications of law, some of them are actually incorrect. You have an excellent command of written English and despite your warnings that you are not a lawyer; it is entirely likely that a lot of people reading this blog would attach a high level of importance to your advice and assertions.
What you’re doing in the first paragraph of your response is attempting to backtrack on what you’ve said in the OP, which was why I picked you up on it! The content of the subsequent paragraphs leads me to conclude that we will never see eye to eye, so I will wish you well and hope you manage to achieve your goals.
14th November 2012 at 9:38 pm
I myself am an nhs trust worker and have recieved numerous PCN’s and letters from both solicitors, until this time i have just sent letters back and ignored them. Until the other day when i recieved a letter from the county court in northapton and now im abit stumbed into what to do next? Any help?
The court are asking for £3000 for fines and legal expenses, something i refuse to pay. Am i doing the right thing?
14th November 2012 at 9:57 pm
True PCNs are actual fines and should never just be ignored. They should be either paid or appealed, a process which can go all the way to the parking tribunal as detailed elsewhere in this site.
In this blog posting I am not talking about PCNs… I am referring to charges which are not true PCNs but dressed up to look like the real thing, incurred as a result of parking in a private car park. You don’t say who issued the PCNs so I’ll assume it was your local council.
Having been taken to court, you should definitely no longer ignore what is happening. The court can, if it finds in favour of the claimant, order that you pay everything claimed including costs. That’s a county court judgement, or CCJ, and can count against you on your credit records until satisfied (paid in full).
At this stage you should seek legal advice and have representation at the court hearing, either defending yourself or being defended professionally. If you are not represented, judgement will be handed down in your absence, and almost certainly not in your favour. Good luck with it all.
14th November 2012 at 9:48 pm
CHECK WITHE COURT FIRST it is legitamate second confirm who has taken this to court.
19th November 2012 at 6:51 pm
@Barry
Oh great advice Barry.
Luke – don’t take any advice from anyone on this website, especially not people Barry who can’t spell or use grammar or punctuation.
19th November 2012 at 10:07 pm
Yes Luke, do not take any advice from anyone except Mr Adam Balderson_Higgins who can obviously write a sentence properly unlike me. Also ignore the former police officer as well he has no idea either. I suspect this person to be a private car parking stooge who has come on here to mix it up.
Luke read the whole blog then make up your own mind, we have all ignored tickets and people like ABH I suggest you do the same.
30th November 2012 at 4:00 pm
Barry, if you wanted to be a Lawyer, you should have worked hard at school, college, University, Bar School etc. Then you could have safely spent all your spare time giving advice to people in crisis. As it is, stick to emptying the bins instead of conducting some laughable Walter Mitty style online existence behind a faceless, nameless, username. This is not a game Barry, if the best you can advise Luke is to check the claim is genuine (oh dear yes it is) and to check who sent it (oh look, it’s the Claimant listed at the top of the N1) then don’t be surprised if people poke fun at you.
A very pertinent phrase here is “A little learning is a very dangerous thing.” Although I suspect in your case even ‘a little learning’ is a gross over-exaggeration.
Have a nice life Barry.
30th November 2012 at 7:21 pm
I have a great life thanks, Mr double barrelled faceless name person!!! I do not know who you think you are but as I have suggested to all on here read through the forum you obviously have not and have some great insight.
I am a qualified lawyer in another field although that has nothing to do with you. I wouldn’t dare question someone on here without knowing anything about them you obviously think you can. I would stick to issuing tickets for private car companies and get off this site you it seems work for them in some capacity don’t you?
Nameless=Barry how is that nameless?
I would advise all to read the FORUM in FULL then make up your own mind. I would direct you to read the points as described by a former police officer before anyone else.
7th January 2013 at 4:14 pm
Just to let you know that following about 6 “threatening” letters from Graham White Solicitors for a parking offence not committed I followed the advice I got from this web site, i.e. did nothing and after 3 months haven’t heard another thing.
Thanks!
8th January 2013 at 10:00 am
Please be aware that “do nothing” is generally not the best advice, nor is that the advice given here. I’m just telling you the facts of my case, in which I definitely didn’t do nothing – excuse the double-negatives – but in fact did rather a lot, short of paying up.
8th January 2013 at 10:45 pm
No worries Bob. Like I have said to all is read this forum first then make up your own mind. I ignored the letters and sent copies of all correspondence to the SRA and SIA. I did not pay a thing and do not intend to in the future.
15th January 2013 at 9:25 am
To add my bit to this thread, an employee of mine fell fool of ACPOA at Luton Airport through parking in a bus stop for approximately two minutes, to check Airport rules on his mobile. The sign stating ACPOA fines was situated at 8 feet, thus making it unable to see or read from the vehicle. I received all the aforementioned demands and threats, but I noticed that the usual photo evidence, as seen on an official traffic fine, was lacking. After requesting this photographic evidence there has been no further correspondence, for over 4 months now.
15th January 2013 at 9:26 am
Fell fowl !
2nd February 2013 at 12:32 pm
I got a parking notice for “stopping” at Liverpool airport. I stalled my car in the early hours on the entrance to a roundabout and it took a few attempts to restart.There were no other cars around bad within around 90 seconds I was on my way.This was from vehicle control services who refused mt appeal. I will certainly go to court on this one!
3rd March 2013 at 10:13 am
I too have had parking notice from New Generation Parking Management Ltd, then from Roxburghe (UK) Limited and now from Graham White Solicitors. I was taking my 94 year old neighbour to the shops and because she cannot walk far, I parked in a disabled space for 5 minutes while I escorted her to the shop and then intneded to move the car. I don’t have a disabled badge but I didn’t have anywhere else to park safely while escorting my neighbour into the shops. I noticed that the headed paper from Graham White Solicitors was not authentic and I have decided to ignore the letter but I have written to Roxburghe stating that I am not paying the fine because (a) no parking notice was issued (b) there was no sign at the disabled bays stating that charges would be issued for parking in this area and (c) If I had parked there, it would have been to escort my neighbour. We’ll see what comes from that. If I receive threatening phone calls I will ensure that I record them and then contact my solicitor. I will not be bullied. I also think it is a good idea to tell these companies that you will bill them at £10 per minute for your time on the phone and then send them an invoice – see if it works!!
4th March 2013 at 9:26 am
Just looked up Graham White Solicitors at Companies House – where all Limited Companies have to be registered by Law, and guess what, they don’t exist. However, Michael Sobell Solicitors does exist so I am going to contact the Solicitors Regulation Authority for an explanation as to why a company sending a letter under Graham White Solicitors is not registered with Companies House and why letters are not sent out in the name of Michael Sobell who actually exists. Me smells a rat here somewhere!! Do you think they are legitimate?
4th March 2013 at 5:55 pm
hi ! I am also worrying after receiving debt letters from Roxburghe, today 4/3/2013 was my first after getting a letter from LCP parking services a private company dated back to August 2012 saying I had not paid and sent photographic evidence > I was given a ticket by a kind gent to cover my stay but my friend nipped back before it expired to pay another couple of hours and stick a ticket on the windscreen. Again the amount has dramatically risen to £172.00 ! If I dont get in touch in 14 days the matter will be passed on to their solicitor Graham White !I feel this is a way to make money which i hasten to add i cant afford to pay! I am so glad I read the blog . Should I do anything else ?
15th March 2013 at 12:28 am
From the date of the PCN, when can they stop pursuing this “debt”, fee, charge, “penalty”, invoice, or whatever else you want to call it?
Six months or six years?
20th March 2013 at 11:06 pm
TOTAL RESPECT TO JON
HE SPEAKS WITH SENSE
I SOUGHT LEGAL ADVISE ON GETTING A INVOICE FOR loading my car and not intending to stay for any length of time {THIS WAS ON PRIVATE LAND}
A Parking Charge Notice issued on private land isn’t a criminal matter and the landowner can’t force you to pay the ticket without taking you to court first.THIS WAS THE INFORMATION I HAD FROM 6/7/2012
21st March 2013 at 5:20 pm
Thank you… and yes that’s exactly the legal position when you’ve parked on private land… and nobody’s going to take you to court for a small sum in circumstances where it’s difficult to prove that you were entering into a contract knowingly by parking your car on the land.
21st March 2013 at 9:28 pm
Any idea how long they can chase you up for these? (I’ve reached exactly 6 months and the ruxburghe debt collector stage, I am hoping the graham white solicitor letter will be the end of this strong of junk mail !!)
Now, reading 100s of sites like yours Jon, with all similar advice, I’m hoping to play “devil advocate” here…. (And this is my summarised opinion on what it boils down to in layman tmerm)
Potentially, and legally, I can park on these private land and “get away with it”? Everyone has a sorrow story, but end of the day, one can park anywhere and does not need to answer for it, does not need to pay, does not need to take any action. (Unless taken to court)
25th March 2013 at 7:15 pm
The basic premises are thus:
1. They can’t issue you with a fine unless authorised by statute to do so, i.e. a local authority; a private parking company can only issue you with an invoice for a commercial debt, never a fine.
2. A company can only claim payment for an invoice if you were adequately informed that by parking on their land you were entering into a contract, and of any charges that would incur.
They can chase you for as long as they like. But ultimately they would have to take you to court (probably the small claims channel), and a court would only find in their favour if convinced that they were claiming a just debt. In most “shaky” cases therefore, they choose not to use the courts but instead to intimidate you into paying up. As always, it’s up to you to judge for yourself how strong your position is. Choose your battles wisely. But never just park on private land with the attitude of “they can’t make me pay anyway” because they most certainly can if they’ve set everything up right in the first place.
21st March 2013 at 9:43 pm
No matter how long they want to pursue it , fact is they are trying to pressure you into paying a fee for something you do not owe. Don’t pay and they go away!
24th March 2013 at 7:48 pm
I got a PCN ticket for overstaying, I ignored it and recieved about 3 letter and a phone call from Roxborugh then didn’t hear anything for a while. A week ago I received a letter from Graham White solicitors. I plan on ignoring that as well, but I just want advice as to whether I’m doing the right thing?
25th March 2013 at 7:06 pm
In my opinion you should never just ignore anything. Far too many people bury their heads in the sand when someone is accusing them of something, which is not what I advocate at all. You should ask them what laws you’ve contravened (as in something like section N of the Blahblah Act 19xx), what offences you’ve committed under that Act of Parliament, and why they think you owe them money. If they feed you, as they did with me, any old bull about licensed private parking companies being able to levy fines, or facing the threat of getting points on your driving license or a bad credit record, record the whole thing and forward it to the OFT as part of an official complaint. And do let us all know how you get on by commenting here.
25th March 2013 at 7:04 pm
100% if they cant even prove you have received a letter let alone anything else they cannot if start looking at anything let alone solicitors!! They are trying to frighten you into paying for something that they know they cannot enforce…I would keep all letters and send copies to the SRA and SIA.
25th March 2013 at 7:14 pm
I didn’t advocate burying his head in the sand as you put it, what I said was he should not respond to letters that are not registered. If he does have solicitors trying to serve him anything they will do it properly and send it by registered signed for post, if they fail to even bother with that then I am afraid I would treat them with the same contempt as they have him and not respond until they act properly.
28th March 2013 at 1:45 pm
Does this advice to ignore also apply to Scotland. Have today received letter from graham white solicitors due to non payment re overstay in car park by 20 mins. Photo copied signature by Michael Sobell solicitor (none of usual letters after name )
Nt sure if doing the right thing by ignoring. Anyone any advice or reasuurance
10th April 2013 at 10:16 pm
hi I parked my car in an excel site and the ticket flipped over and a fine was placed on my screen, stupidly having not seen these blogs I contacted excel and emailed them a photo of my paid parking ticket 1 hour after issue of their parking notice, they replied and said my appeal had been declined I have since received letters from Roxburghe Debt Collectors and now Graham White Solicitors obviously they know who was driving the car. any advice
27th April 2013 at 9:32 pm
Read this site it will tell you what to do I wouldnt respond. They cant issue you with a fine they can only issue you with a commercial debt which is hard to prove.
They know this are unenforceable so let them write away.
28th April 2013 at 12:26 pm
I have had a few of these nasty letters. I understand that Grahame White is not being investigated following complaints to a consumer programme on ITV1. My advise is to write to them and tell them you are not paying and the reasons why. I have done this and not heard from them again. The onus is on them to prove that you are the driver. You can tell them that you don’t know who the driver was at the time of the fine. I agree that they cannot inforce the fine so don’t worry about them. I know of a facebook following that discusses how many fines staff on a hospital site have had – its become a joke with one person receiving 9 fines in 1 day..!
28th April 2013 at 12:30 pm
To CJ – don’t worry about the ticket. These companies just want to make money. I parked in a dsabled spot at a supermarket so that I could help my neighbour to the shops. I re-parked my car to do my shoping. I got a notice in the post saying I had illegally parked but no ticket. I told them I was not paying and I have not heard from them since. If you get the Grahame White Solicitors letter ignore this too. He is being investigated following an ITV consumer programme. Grahame White is still practicing as a solicitor at the age of 77 – I don’t think so but must be getting a cut. The letter from him is not authentic, just a copy with a pre-printed signature – very dodgy. Don’t pay CJ.
29th April 2013 at 7:23 pm
I too have been harrased by these people from euro car parks and the white and roxburghe scammers with the latest phone call from them today – I ignore or else ask them for proof etc as mentioned in my first email to them. I sent this reply when I first received ECP letter in December. I intend to take them for non payment of invoices through the small claims court and charges rise every time I spend pointless time on this. my letter to them below-
Dear Sir/Madam [term used loosely]
I write to allow you to review a Parking Charge Notice issued by Euro Car Parks (ECP) on 31/12/2012 and am now putting this under notice to you to allow you to ascertain and amend your claims and pending enforcement notice from same letter. The PCN Number and other details is given further down in this letter.
I am in receipt of 3 items of evidence that does indeed show, and prove, that you are at fault with the issue of the PCN and threats of potential follow up actions if the PCN is not paid for et al.
This evidence is being held by myself with copies made that will be submitted as evidence and used as exhibits, if and when this notice enters the legal stages in due course.
I am now requesting the following from you, that may, or may not, become part of this process as to what actions I will be carrying out in the future. Your co-operation in this matter is strongly advised and will be looked upon as favorable in subsequent correspondence between ECP and myself.
1. On your PCN letter you show 2 small photographs of a number plate allegedly entering and exiting a private car park adjacent to a retail park. I now request that you furnish me with photographs showing the vehicle entering and exiting same, complete with time date stamp on photograph which will be legal and relevant to be used in a court of law. Please be advised that in due course I will also be asking for footage of same with electronic stamp and link to whichever camera recorded this by its unique model control number, this will also be used in any subsequent legal case.
2. You obviously sent this PCN to the RK of the said vehicle and I now ask you to furnish a photograph of the driver at the time of your recording of the PCN as the RK may not have been driving the vehicle at the time and you may wish to determine who was, in your defence, for further action and subsequent legal follow up of this PCN.
3. As you state in your letter, that you use the DVLA for your information of RK, please note I will be contacting them for other information in regards to the freedom of information and data protection issues with regards to this case and will, in due course also be contacting you by way of follow up and other subsequent actions.
4. Before you respond to this letter I ask you to also consider the following, Note I will be asking for evidence of this in due course ; –
a/ What Quality Control or Assurance measures have you in place to ensure accuracy and accountability against individuals that you issue PCNs to? This may be pivotal against you depending on what you can produce and be able to prove that these were in place at the time when the PCN was issued.
b/ How do you cross-reference information from your cameras against actual times, locations and vehicles, drivers etc? Again same as a above re proof and ability to produce.
c/ Can you show when cameras were last calibrated as to time etc?
d/ As you have issued this PCN and also subsequent notice that this will be passed onto third parties please be advised that reciprocally all of the evidence I have and further productions will also be passed onto third parties, names of whom I shall produce in due course and in subsequent correspondence as this case develops.
e/ I am also requesting from you a full layout of the appeals procedure (which must be independent from your own ‘in-house’ effort) which, quite frankly holds no grounds the way it is at present. Likewise I do not recognise your use of your control account plc and have carried out further research and investigation into this and again it holds no ground that matters in the PCN and subsequent actions by you.
PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING
Please furnish me with the appropriate Road Traffic Act and it’s sub-sections which appertain to your issuing the Parking Charge Notice.
DETAILS OF YOUR PCN
No xxxxxxxxxxxx Contravention date 22/12/2012
All other details you should have and not necessary to duplicate here.
SUBSEQUENT ACTION
From the above, with regard to the evidence I have in my possession, the promise of further action in a court of law and my requests to you for certain items and documents, which may mitigate your actions and the issue of your PCN – please note that you have the right to appeal up to 14 days from the date of this letter and the process will be sent to you on request should you wish to make any appeal.
From all of the above and in subsequent correspondence to you I make notice now, that I will be issuing you with an invoice for £120 + further administration fees as determined by the length of correspondence and further actions up to a maximum of £3000 or as determined by a court of law, in the future and in accordance with the laws of the land.
You cooperation is appreciated in this matter and I welcome any further correspondence and items requested above no later than 14 days from the date of this letter.
likewise/ PLEASE TAKE CAREFUL NOTE OF THIS ALSO
The Administration of Justice Act 1970.
Section 40 of the act provides that a person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under contract, he or she:
A) harasses the other with demands for payment which by their frequency, or the manner or occasion of their making, or any accompanying threat or publicity are calculated to subject him or his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation:
B) Falsely represent, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it:
C) falsely represent themselves to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment:
D) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not:
Yours
WD Legal Department
4th May 2013 at 6:14 pm
I followed the advice, ignored everything…. until letter from solicitor came.
So did I ignore that one?
Nope, because the Graham white on the letter was a registered solicitor. I thought I can beat them at their own game.
So what did I reply on the first ever correspondent to this fiasco that started in Sept?
I gave the solicitor an * ultimatum*. How? I said, WITHIN 28 DAYS of the date of this letter, you need to reply with evidence of this ‘invoice’ otherwise this debt will be deemed CANCELLED (that’s right baby -legality in his face!!) and any correspondents beyond that date will be regarded as harassment from yourself/clients and dealt with appropriately.
Smart, heh?
Well, I was counting down the days, so close, and he gave a ‘general’ reply – that it was passed onto the client and will be processed.
So he did reply, and within 28 days, now I’m stuck!!! He didn’t reply with evidence, but nonetheless, he did reply!
I should have made it clear, give me a reply within evidence, not some general reply.
I’m not sure what my next move will be now, but I think it will be along the lines I have not heard or no evidence produced from you/clients 28 days from the day you sent your letter, therefore this letter serves the debt/invoice cancelled. Any further claim to any amount of monies will be taken as harassment and dealt with.
Good?
Suggestions?
I love incompetence people and company (I remember I use to claim so much from Virgin Broadband – those were the days!!) I wish I can claim some money from all of the croonies!!!
18th May 2013 at 2:44 pm
I HAVE READ WITH GREAT INTEREST ABOUT PEOPLE GETTING WORRIED OR UPSET OVER DEMANDS FROM THESE PEOPLE. I HAD ONE SEVERAL YEARS AGO, DOSEN’T WORRY ME AT ALL BUT I WILL ADMIT WHEN I GET THESE LETTERS I DO TEND TO GET SLIGHTLY STRESSED AND WHEN I,M STRESSED I FORGET TO FEED MY THREE DOBERMANS , AND TO BE HONEST THEY DON,T LIKE STRANGERS KNOCKING AT MY DOOR. FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
3rd June 2013 at 8:17 pm
@mk
No reply within 28 days ok he did reply but did not follow the instructions therefore no case to answer..have you also checked that this so called solicitor is genuine?
17th June 2013 at 9:09 am
Right, so this ones another letter following couple or more before demanding a fine of 60£ for parking over the 30 min free parking limit (parked for 40 mins) according to Excel parking. I am definite i did not overstay but they have provided a photographic evidence of the the car coming in and leaving. Although this is not my car and I was only driving it that day, the owner of the car has been getting these letters and but with the latest he recieved yesterday is from Graham white and has got me worried. They are asking for a charge of 207£ wich covers all sorts of admin fee, judgement costs, claim issue fee, solicitor cost etc.
They have warned him to pay up or face credit issues if taken to county court, plus costs.
We are not even certain if I was there at all that day or if a friend of his from India had borrowed the car that day.
Any advice on how to follow this up?
Ignore completely like we have done so far or atleat reply back?
Cheers !
24th June 2013 at 2:32 pm
Don’t pay. I had 4 fines in the last 4 months. One in particular I objected to so I wrote and advised that I was not going to pay. I had no response. The other 3 I had letters from G White etc., but they soon stopped when I ignored them. The onus is on the company to prove that you were the driver on the day. If you were not then you don’t have anything to worry about. If they said it was your car, ask for the proof and I am sure that it will not be forthcoming. My advice, ignore, ignore, ignore.
29th June 2013 at 10:13 am
These are not solicitors – nor paralegals – nor legal secretaries. These are just call centre debt collectors.
30th June 2013 at 9:55 pm
100% correct
6th September 2013 at 12:50 pm
Hi I just need to know where I send now I’ve received a letter from Northampton county courts regarding Apcoa parking ltd can you please advise me if that can do this or just ignor again!!
Fran@Phillip Howling
27th September 2013 at 9:10 am
Hi – I have just received a refused appeal from POPLA in relation to a ticket issued to me by Excel Parking, I got a ticket from a shopping complex which has a KFC tucked away from the shops. I asked the KFC operatives if I needed a ticket, they advised not due to where I was parked. Weeks later ticket came to my home address. I feel a £100 charge is a ridiculous amount and I do not want to pay, they have threatened court action – is there any chance I could end up with a CCJ against my name? Thanks, Chris.
4th October 2013 at 1:34 pm
Have had similar experience, got fine for pick up at roundabout at luton airport, 10 secs. I wasn’t driving but fine and photo came in from Apcoa then letteres from Roxburghe. I called Roxburghe to ask them were they a legal company and the guy said “well, i’m hardly going to tell you we’re not, of course i’m going to say we’re legal”???, then I asked him to confirm how they got my details from Apcoa, he said he couldn’t, he was really rude, arrogant, not what you expect from a trained customer service team. he asked me why was I spending 3 mins on phone if I wasn’t worried. Such behaviour. I told him his call was recorded, he said, so what so is this. Now, no company deal with customers like that. We have been ignoring these for 3 months now, lets see what happens.
19th October 2013 at 8:21 pm
Interesting to see all this discussion. I am Coupon-mad on MSE forum and SchoolRunMum on pepipoo. A few points for you all:
– this blog is by a Brighton boy. I am also from the BHA area and so is Steve Dargonne of Roxburghe. Did you realise the guy is from Brighton/Worthing, an ex-Banker? Think he even goes to BHA footie matches.
– the law has changed in that you SHOULD NO LONGER IGNORE THESE except in Scotland/NI.
– the law simply means the scammers can go for the registered keeper and/or driver, but:
– the law (POFA 2012) also insisted on the scammers having an independent appeals system.
– the current second stage appeal is to POPLA
– you can appeal to POPLA on ANY GROUNDS at all (do not believe the four main headings)
– do not send a normal mitigating circumstances appeal to POPLA or you will lose!
– on pepipoo and MSE parking forum we have 100% success rate at POPLA since Easter 2013.
– the killer appeal points are usually ‘there has been no genuine pre-estimate of loss’ and ‘I require the company to show POPLA the contract with the landowner which must be compliant with the BPA code of practice and authorise the company to pursue these charges in their own name in court. I do not believe the company has this authority and neither do they have the status to offer parking and make contracts at a site where they have no legal interest.’
– beware of Parking Eye who pursue people in court. You can beat them at POPLA though, 100%
– finally why the heck have so many posters here wasted their time replying to the middle-man debt collectors? Hilarious to see so many replying to Roxburghe pointlessly. IF they ring up just say the debt is denied. Phone down.
Get yourselves to pepipoo.com (private parking tickets forum) or the MoneysavingExpert Parking tickets forum (the actual live forum not just some articles on MSE website).
We can help you perfect a POPLA appeal if you are in England/Wales. As at Oct 2013 you should appeal when ever you get a Notice in the post…
BUT NOT BEFORE! NOT WHEN YOU GET A WINDSCREEN TICKET!!
27th February 2014 at 1:00 pm
@David
You are hereby given notice to remove your without the consent of the proprietor’s.
Legal proceedings will commence unless you do as asked.
9th March 2014 at 6:58 pm
Well, it would help, “Law Enforcement” from Coventry UK, if you could: a) write in coherent, grammatical English; b) identify yourself; c) be specific about who’s said something you don’t like and what it was; d) cite a law that’s been broken by c). If you fail to do this within seven days, your ISP Sky Broadband will receive a complaint which is traceable to your IP address at the time you posted your comment.